Norovirus germ killer

[*amy*]

I read on an earlier post about cruise ships that they have stuff that kills 99.9% of Norovirus germs, then why the HELL don't they sell it in the shops?! It would make so many people less sick as it's so common...


Anybody know how to get hold of some (lol!) ? Or if they do sell it anywhere?


Amy xXxXxXx

[californiagirl]

They should sell it everywhere because norovirus causes huge outbreaks in schools,, restaurants, and other places! if anyone finds some, please let us all know!

[*amy*]

I just have general hand sanitizer that I carry around with me and it says it kills 99% of common skin bacteria... what does this mean? Like... skin bacteria, is it bacteria that is just on the skin, or stuff you have picked up from say, touching a door knob? xxx

[violet]

Its called detol, you can buy it in a spray can, comes in apple smell and something else, you can buy it in all the large supermarkets here in the UK, il get a link and show you what it looks like

x

[*amy*]

Ooooooh yes please! when you are next on, send me the link! id dettol the stuff that kills 99.9% of norovirus germs?


Thanx Violet!!! XxXxXxX

[violet]

http://www.dettol.co.uk/solutionsfinder.shtml

middle left of the page that is the stuff I have used, very nice smelling!

[*amy*]

Thankyou very much =) xxx I'll get some of that tomorrow =D


Shame they don't do hand sanitizer...


Love Amy xXxXxXx [img]smileys/smilies_04.gif[/img]

[violet]

*LoL* yes it is, something that would be good to suggest to the company to do!

but ive used it around the house before, nice smell not a chemical smell that comes from the stuff

Have fun lol

x

[*amy*]

Maybe I could add some into the sanitizer I have already! ah ha! Good idea =)


xxx

[chicajojobe]

Any clues what it's called in the United States? I'm sure all us American emets would be interested in knowing.

[icicledreamz]

I have this!! haha..bt never thought of it as a hand sanitizer stuff, my dad uses it for cleaning his hand from chamicals after work

[mars]

Hi Violet and Amy, I read through the Dettol information and although it looks like it kills lots of bacteria and viruses, it doesn't mention norovirus. I wonder if it is affective against that one?M x

[jodi054]

contact them and find out first hand if it does !!

[neesy]

Yes, it is great that these sprays are around, but I am sure I read somewhere that because of all these germ killers, the germs are getting stronger and that is why there are so many bugs around and sickness bugs seem more prevailant!

[jodi054]

very true

[violet]

yup that is true, but its like most things on this earth and also evolution, the stronger and bigger it gets the stronger and bigger we get and the things we use, its vital for us to keep climbing through these things, not just bugs ect but also Co2 and our carbon production on our ozone layer, we just all need ot keep eveolving, anyway back to the topic lol

[sillygirl]

I have a hand sanitizer that specifically lists norovirus. I order it from drugstore.com. It's called Vira Gard. It comes in either a gel, a spray, or a liquid.

[crimgoddess]

Neesy- you are exactly right. People unecessarily using antibacterial products is what is making these illnesses more resilient, not to mention making allergies worse, and kids more likely to be sicker longer from things that their bodies would be able to normally fight off if exposed to bacteria to build their immune systems. By saying that these illnesses are getting worse and thus we must cling to these products is just making the problem worse instead of better.


There are some cases where these products are warranted, but it is not needed for everyday household use, especially since moderate handwashing is really your best defence.


I think that people are also under the impression that they are in a lot more danger from noroviruses than they actually are if they practice proper hygiene. Media reports and word of mouth tend to overexagerate the issue- how many people here can actually say that they have had a norovirus in the past year? I tend to catch everything, and it's been years since I can actually say that I have caught something whose symptoms would suggest a norovirus. And I would say that I am in the middle when it comes to hand hygiene- I do wash, but am not obsessive about it, and have been known to eat while out without washing first (usually street-veggie meat, or a beavertail).


Yes, noroviruses are nasty- but that shouldnt mean that it's okay to use products which could potentially make the problem a lot worse in the future. Cruise ships and hospitals, where people are in close quarters, people can't leave if they do get sick, and/or there are people with compromised immune systems- they warrant the use of theseproducts. In your home however, not so much, especially if you have kids.


*amber*

[violet]

amber since your phobia is more concentrated on others being sick, that is your perception of this.

It is good to practice hygiene in the home that is to a high standard, especially if you have kids, as they get enough interaction with other germs while they are out with other children, so usuing this stuff can be more of a help.

no matter whether we attack it or not these viruses will keep growing and progressing, just as we do and life does, yes with us trying to prevent it, it will grow at a quicker rate but that just means we build defences quicker as humans grow in our intelligence.

Id rather be comfortable in my own home knwoing that its clean and tidy and if needed these prodcuts are there, I use the kitchen work top cleaner and there handwash in my kitchen before I touch any food or anything that will becoming into contact with me, I practice good hyigene and these help, I wouldnt live in a house where I didnt use these, Im taking advantage of what we have on our market, whether or not we like it, these viruses are here id rather protect myself from it rather than giving it a wide door to walk into.

there expensive though, there company im sure is making alot of cash from these, but we all need to earn a penny or two.

[crimgoddess]

Actually, your perception of what these products do may be a bit off. You think that using these products in a household with children is a good thing, because logically it would mean that they will be protected from illness, correct? Actually, what it is doing is making them sicker.


Allergies are getting worse, because kids who live in a sterile environment aren't exposed to enough and thus they can't build the proper immunities/tolerance. For the same reason, their bodies have a harder time fighting something off when they DO get sick, as they have not had enough exposure to bacteria and illness, and thus their bodies go "holy crap, what's this?"- and it hits them harder and it takes longer for them to recover.


You home can be clean without needing to rely on these products- if anything, it will be healthier if you don't. Not relying on antibacterial products isn't giving these germs a wide door to walk into- in fact, using them is essentially opening the door to them mutating to become more harmful, and not teaching your body what to do when it does come in contact with them. These products aren't building your defences- if anything, they make it less likely that your body can develop a defence and be able to fight off these things, because they aren't being exposed to them often enough.


With all due respect- You can call me on my perceptions being different because I only fear others being sick- but then you also must acknowledge that your own severe fear of yourself being sick will also affect how you view these products. I can understand wanting to feel safe in your own home- I think everyone seeks this feeling. However, recent research is showing these products to be more of a curse than a blessing, and if they have the potential to make you and others MORE sick in the future, shouldn't they be avoided?


Not meant to be an attack or anything- I just think that the larger ramifications of using these products need to be addressed, as people need to be aware that in the end they can be more likely to cause what we are trying to avoid- being ill.


*amber*Edited by: crimgoddess

[crimgoddess]

I should also add that I really, REALLY don't want anyone in my household to become ill. If Chris even mentions feeling a bit off, I clean like a crazy women. I'm not all that down with me catching anything either, as even though I don't fear myself becoming ill, I would prefer to avoid it at all costs. I just don't think that these antibacterial anythings is the best route to go about it.


*amber*

[violet]

<<Actually, your perception of what these products do is a bit off. You
think that using these products in a household with children is a good
thing, because logically it would mean that they will be protected from
illness, correct? Actually, what it is doing is making them sicker.>>

Wrong, Not saying that I wouldnt want my kids t live in a clean evnviroment but I do know that what we are using these days are causing problems for people, but, if we are looking at the younger generation, then look at the old as well, they actually benifit from this and yes so do the kids, if they have enough exposure outside not within the home, so when they are at home and someone is ill the hygiene levels are already up to a high standard as they should be in the home but able to be tackled without the germs being spread to other people as without these it isnt 100% possible, not just thes products though, there is your standard bleach, that killer 99.9% of germs, should that not be taken into account also.

Keeping the standards of hygiene in your home to a good level is important for everyones health, if not using bleach, detol products, anti bacterial solutions then how?

As these products have been marketed and the more they have been used it has come common pactice for many people to use them, then with our own immune systems used to these levels of hygeine and something that person is personally comfortable with then why not keep using them.

It is possible to keep your home clean and NOT sterile and still have a healthy child, by using these products it doesnt mean that you are going to cuse your child any problems, showing them how to protect themselfs and there family and teaching them about infection controll but also the right ammount of exsposure for there own health is a better idea.

Im glad we have these products out on the market keeping out hospitals homes anywhere clean, protecting againsed what may still be evolving because of other peple using it as well as ourselfs or not in some cases.

The ammount these products have been used and no doubt will continue to be used cant be helped, they no doubt will come out with stronger and more potentually harmful products to "protect" us that yes people will use, but 2 oppinions ontop of 2000,0000 arent really going to make much difference really.

I know I use handwash way to much, but as well as having emet I also have OCD so that contributes as to why Im like that, but, I still eat just about everything apart from meat, my own choice, we can build our defences in other ways than just exposure with out hands ect..

If you dont think these anti bacterial products are the way to go about this, then what do you think would be the best way to tackle these growing viruses?

[crimgoddess]

What evidence do you have that they benefit from the use of these products? If anything, I have read that for children especially, these products can cause more harm than good:


http://www.colorado.edu/PWR/occasions/soap.html


http://www.ib.uit.no/~arilde/bio100c...DailyGerms.pdf


(I have a few other links, but they are on my computer that it internet-less)


Also, that household who use these products aren't any better protected than those who use regular soap and water:


http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/4597


The thing is, studies that show these products in a positive light are often commissioned by the company themselves, or don't have proper control groups. That, or their focus is narrow and doesn't look to the wider ramifications. These of course pertain to the studies I have seen. There may be others that are better executed.


From what I have read, some of the reasons WHY people are getting sicker and bacteria is becoming more resistant is BECAUSE people are using these products. So, what you are using for protection, is what is making people more sick to begin with. It's not a matter of needing more protection from growing viruses/bacteria- but actually stepping down the so-called "protection" factor in order to prevent these things from becoming more resistant, and to allow your body to learn how to fight these things off. Our bodies learn from their environment-our bodiesnot being able to learn how to fight these things off because they haven't been exposed to any of it, even small amounts, means that whenwe do come in contact with it, the odds ofus being able to fight it off and not becoming sick is a lot less.


Regular soap and water is sufficient enough to protect yourself and your household from the spread of illness. The extra 2% of protection that these products offer just isn't worth it for the other damage it causes. Yes, that's right- there is only approximatelya 2% difference in the protective factors of these products vs. regular soap, which doesn't really mean much in terms of you catching anything, but can mean a lot in terms of resistance.


Yes, I absolutely agree that children need to be taught good hygiene- but antibacterials do not need to be part of this. And you can't just assume that the exposure they get outside of the household is enough to build their immune systems- especially since very young kids often spend the majority of the time in the house. There is no calculation of "the right amount of exposure"; kids now whoare exposed while outside of the home, but who come back to a 99.9% bacteria-free environment are developping these problems, so this rationale hasn't been working.


We both want the same thing here- for people to practice good hygiene and to stop the spread of illness. Proper washing with regular soap/detergent and water will achieve this. Antibacterial products make a lot of promises, but with those promises come more problems, all for an extra 2% of protection.


*amber*Edited by: crimgoddess

[alwaysamber]

You know Amber I don't know if you have noticed but you argue with EVERYONE and everyone's opinion. You aren't "always" right believe it or not. You are very argumentative. You don't always have to prove someone wrong. You tend to frustrate a lot of people...I am sure many people would back me up on that. You like to argue every point....and or debate, its really not needed! I know it is strongly apart of your personality but it wouldn't hurt to tone it down a bit!

Amber

[crimgoddess]

I actually don't argue with everyone- and I am not actually arguing with Violet.


Arguing involvessome sort of malicious intent or bad feelings, and I can say right now that I feel none. What, can people not discuss something like grownups without fear of being labelled "argumentative"? I didn't even really start this line of reasoning, someone else mentioned the potentialharm of antibacterials earlier on in this thread. I also started a thread relating to this weeks ago that was turned into a sticky post ( http://www.emetophobia.org/forum/for...sp?TID=9962&am p;am p;PN=1), so it's not like I am dragging this stuff out of my butt just to start something. It's obviously something that I feel strongly about- and it's obviously something that Violet feels strongly about too, judging by the length of her replies. And it's fine- we will probably end up agreeing to disagree.


Is it not more argumentative to to jump into something and accuse someone of being argumentative, when neither of the two people having the discussion accused the other of this? And this thread isn't even about anything personal- its about soap and cleaners- and its funny, because Violet and I both agree on the end result of what a thorough cleaning should do, just not on how it should be done.


You know what? I'm sure some people on this board don't like me- which is fine with me- bound to happen. I have however gotten messages from people who appreciate my point of view and like the fact that I state my opinion.


So...if anyone has any problems with my personality, they can feel free to PM me about it, and I will be happy to address their concerns. Please don't turn this into a "bash Amber because she disagrees" thread- we have had a few of those in the past, and inevitably people will become snarky and one of the mods will post a firm message and possibly lock the thread. Not fun for anyone, especially those who may want to speak to the real issue that was being discussed.


So- Violet, I hope you aren't under the impression that I am trying to attack you in any way, as that is definitely not my intent. I just wanted to present some evidence to back up my opinion, which you are of course free to disagree with. I admire the fact that you are able to discuss something rationally, and feel passionately about your opinions, even if I may not agree with them.


*amber*Edited by: crimgoddess

[neesy]

You home can be clean without needing to rely on these products- if anything, it will be healthier if you don't. Not relying on antibacterial products isn't giving these germs a wide door to walk into- in fact, using them is essentially opening the door to them mutating to become more harmful, and not teaching your body what to do when it does come in contact with them. These products aren't building your defences- if anything, they make it less likely that your body can develop a defence and be able to fight off these things, because they aren't being exposed to them often enough.

100% agree.


I have had this phobia for over 30 years and I fear both other people and myself being sickand although I am quite obsessive if somebody has been ill and will use these products then, but although my house is clean and tidy I am not obsessively clean.

[one who squeaks]

Okay, I'm kind of lost, but I figured I'd toss in my (slightly irrelevant?) two cents on hand sanitizers anyway. :P



Bacteria: 64%+ ethanol-based hand sanitizers (Purell, Germ-X, etc.) are
great for everyday bacterial pathogens and enveloped viruses. The
chances of either developing a resistance to ethanol are incredibly
low. Ethanol kills it and kills it dead, and because it evaporates,
there is no residual ethanol for the microorganism to "adapt" to.

Antibacterial soaps (and certain other products), on the other hand,
are generally crap. Never believed in them, never will. I've been
waiting for stuff like triclosan to make a royal mess for years now.
For goodness' sake, stop putting it in cutting boards and knives!



Viruses: Again, 64%+ ethanol is really only effective against enveloped
viruses, such as colds and flus. Put up against unenveloped viruses
like Norwalk (AAARRGHH PLEASE KILL IT*%E^), it doesn't do so well.
However, Vira Guard</span>, which Sillygirl mentioned, uses a synergistic formula of ethanol and 1-propanol and is indeed Death to Noroviruses.



When buying sanitizers, always check the active ingredients first. Knowledge is power!



*Note: Almsot forgot. Viruses found on your hands or other surfaces
probably won't develop an ethanol resistance because they aren't
actively replicating. Unless they've found a host cell, they're useless
bags of genetic information.



And that's all I have to say about hand sanitizers. Sorry for rambling. :x

[snakemed]

Shouldn't have read this thread, feel the need to wash my hands now . . .


Uh-oh, now I'm worried. Gonna check my ingredients now . . . [img]smileys/smilies_03.gif[/img]

[sage]

The thing is, there's a huge difference between viruses and bacteria - this I learned from Alvin. You can "kill" bacteria, but you can't really "kill" viruses cuz they're not actually "alive" unless they're inside a host (you). So what you really need to do is wash them off and down the sink. Which you can do easily with a mild soap of any kind. There is no need for anything "antibacterial". Household bleach (a solution of it - don't use pure bleach) is the best thing for bacteria of all kinds, and it will de-activate viruses so they can be washed away. Mix a tablespoon of bleach in a litre of water and use that to spray countertops, etc. But soap and water is best on your hands.


I know hospitals use Dettol so it must work pretty well. But really, it's the washing that's the ticket.


And Amber - keep "arguing" lol - you always make so much sense,and the problem with all us phobics is we're usually so darn unreasonable!