OT/ Body Farms

[shiva]

I recently read a book called "Death's Acre, Inside the Body Farm" by Dr. Bill Bass and Jon Jefferson. This book explores forensic anthropology and discusses how they founded their body farm, where they studdied human bodies in different stages and means of composition to help them solve crimes, etc.


I love this. I instantly decided that I was going to donate my body to the body farm so that when I die my corpse can help forensic science explore more possibilities. (however, i have not finished the paper work because my family and fiance are adamantly arguing that they will not let it happen : )


Recently I saw on the news that a local farmer sold land to someone who was going to turn the land into another body farm lab/ facilitiy to study composition. I was disapointed to see that much of the community was planning to fight these plans. All I could think is if someone they loved was murdered and found in a bog or the trunk of a car, wouldn't they appreciate these scientists for doing what they are doing. I mean, it could lead to finding out who was responsible for people's murders, etc.


So, obviously I think body farms are awesome and have a lot of purpose for science in our society. I was wondering what everyone elses thoughts were on these kinds of facilities or this kind of science. Remember, that unless these people study these corpses in situations that your loved on could some day find themselves in, they will not know how to truly investigate the situation. They can learn soooo much from this.


So, what do you all think?

[samara's on tv]

LoL!! I'm not LAUGHING AT you...I'm laughing because I want to donate my body to a body farm too! I told my mother this recently and she freaked out and said that if I were to suddenly die or something there is NO WAY she would donate my body to a body farm! But the way I figure it is this, when I'm dead I'll be dead and won't need my body any more. Like you said, giving my body to one of those places helps them solve crimes then I'm all for it! I totally agree with you! You have my support ALL THE WAY!


~Monica

[crimgoddess]

At this point I am almost indifferent. I find it very cool- but at the same time disappointed. I work on the other side of the system- with men who are incarcerated or are serving the rest of their sentences in the community. So, they are developping all these new scientific measures to catch the 'dangerous killers'- but then what? They will be sent to a harmful and destructive prison environment, and eventually be released back into the community with more problems and issues that they had when they comitted their crime. It's a no-win situation for everyone.


I just wish that equal time, money, and effort was spent in addressing the factors that make our society more conducive to crime, and coming up with real alternatives to the prison that aren't just add-ons to the system.


So, as much as I think it's cool that they are using this method to be more able to determine such things as cause and time of death- this doesn't occur in a vacuum, and other factors need to be addressed in conjunction with this. I can't get too excited.


*amber*

[shiva]

I agree that more should be done to stop people from becoming cold enough to murder another person, but unfortunately I think that job is far too big for our society to handle at this point. I guess it depends on whether we are talking stopping behavioral issues that would lead to murder, or changing the environment that people face once they are in prison. I think both should be fixed and I think it will be very hard to fix both as well..


Until then, everyone knows that it is bad to kill another person. If someone kills another person, they should have to pay a price. (unfortunately you are right, they are more often sent back into society even more effed up...but what are ya gonna do? let them do whatever the f*** they want to do?) Too small a percent of people care about how prison is messing with these people. And too small a percent of people are concerned about how thier actions affect other people's lives. Until then, this is the coolest thing going.


Not to mention, if it were my kid or sister who was found dead in the woods at the hands of one of these people... I wouldn't even care to consider where they were going because I would fight tooth and nail for their asses to be killed.. That's just human nature. At that point, who the f*** are they to me?


It's a cool science anyway... It just fascinates me.

[samara's on tv]

A few years ago I saw a TV show about body farms and what not and I thought that it was really neat. Yes I agree that more should be done about changing enviornments and society to STOP murders but do you know how HARD that would be? As it is I know two people who were murdered.


One of my friends was shot in the back of the head and seven times in the back 100 feet from the police station in front of 10 witnesses in broad daylight. The dude actually pleaded NOT GUILTY! What kind of F-ed up SH*T is THAT?


Another one of my highschool friends was shot in the face in the same room as her 3 week old child.


The people who do this are obviously imbalanced and need help, but do we really have the time or resources to rehabilitate these people?


~Monica

[lgood22573]

I've met Dr. Bass, I went to UT. He's a cool guy. He's quite famous.

[crimgoddess]

<<<I agree that more should be done to stop people from becoming cold enough to murder another person, but unfortunately I think that job is far too big for our society to handle at this point. I guess it depends on whether we are talking stopping behavioral issues that would lead to murder, or changing the environment that people face once they are in prison. I think both should be fixed and I think it will be very hard to fix both as well..>>>


It really is a misconception that these people are cold, or in any way different from the 'normal' population. Yes, there are some individuals who do have a history of mental illness, but this isn't normative. I have been working with Lifers for almost 4 years now (in Canada 'life' is not natural life, and if you are a Lifer you are generally convicted of murder), and actually find them to be quite like anyone else that you would meet. If you saw them on the street, you would think that they were someone's father, brother, husband, etc. They are not cold, nor are they indifferent to what they have done- the predominant emotion that they felt when they comitted the crime was actually fear. People charged with murder are also least likely to have a large history of crime, and most likely to not re-offend once returned to the community.


As for changing conditions that make certain societies conducive to crime- there are some little things that need to be done, along with some big things that are probably not achievable in this lifetime. Little things- better school system, more access to post-secondary education or vocational programs, youth diversion from the traditional criminal justice system, access to afterschool programs and programs for youth deemed 'at risk' (how I hate those words), etc. Unfortunately, these programs often get started, but then lose their funding because the results are not readily visible.


Some of the larger things that need to take place is fighting discrimination, closing the disparity between the rich and the poor, and changing how we view crime and it's perpetrators. When a crime is committed in North America, the first thing that anyone does it point the finger and demand 'justice' in the means of a punitive system which does further harm. However, we are ALL complicit in creating conditions which make crime occur. In other societies, instead of reacting to a crime by demanding vengeance, they view it as a tragedy in general, and ask what can be done to help both parties involved. This is evident in Norway, when a few years ago one child was killed by two others who were imitating a program they watched on tv. Instead of demanding that these children be put in jail and never released (which is exactly what happened when a similar case occured in England), the communityasked what can be done for the victim's family, but also for the two boys who committed the crime. They wanted to make sure that these boys had a chance of having a 'normal' life.


As for fixing the prison system- it's simple. It's beyond fixing. Abolish it. There is a certain segment of the population that indeed poses a threat to the community and should be kept separate, but these are the minority- it has been estimated that less than 5% of the current prison population. The prison itself perpetuates violence and fear- it is ingrained into the actual institution, so even if you chance the physical makeup or activities, the end result would be the same. You can't punish someone better- and the deprivation of liberty only exacerbates an already fragile situation.


<<<Until then, everyone knows that it is bad to kill another person. If someone kills another person, they should have to pay a price. (unfortunately you are right, they are more often sent back into society even more effed up...but what are ya gonna do? let them do whatever the f*** they want to do?) Too small a percent of people care about how prison is messing with these people. And too small a percent

[tink]

You might also like the book Stiff by Mary Roach. It is the fabulous life of human cadavers. She writes about the body farm, and also how they use bodies for plastic surgeons to practice on, and for crash test dummies. Corpses are used for suprising amount of things.. It is a really lighthearted look at something that can normally be upsetting. I reccomend it highly.


--Kim

[shiva]

Tink,
Funny you should mention that. I am waiting in line to borrow the book Stiff from my sister. Can't wait to read it.

Amber,
Long posts are great, so don't apologize. Although your mentality seems very admirable, unless everyone in the world comes to the same realization- doesn't it feel like you are beating your head against a wall?

I often think to myself that I want to become a school counselor because I think this would be a position where I could make a difference in some of these people's lives. I have come to a realization that many of these people would not be who they are if someone might have intervened when they were kids. Problem with that is, the system basically says you cannot tell others how to raise their children. s***, the court mediator stood in front of me saying that I could not even dictate the kind of parenting her father practices when she is with him. But, I am in contempt if I don't send her there. Unless there is physical abuse, there is nothing to be done about it. So, I have come to a realization that even if I am in a position to reach out to kids, who the f*** cares.. .Can't do much about it. I also explored being a parole officer. I was told (by a career counselor and my therapist) that I am too empathetic and wouldn't be hired because I 'tend to see the good in all people'. So again I was left asking myself "WTF?" Finally, I guess I saw the reality in which we live. Unfortunately I don't have the energy or resources to change the world. God knows I would f***ing love to, but I can't. Sometimes it's not that people just throw up their hands and say "Oh well", it's just that it hurts to much to constantly be beating my head against a wall. I have finally learned to pick my battles in life and re prioritize. Hopefully being there for my daughter, teaching her, educating her and making a difference for her will be enough to fulfill me with these issues.

And there is a huge economical gap. I am not arguing that. The thing is, my father was poor. His parents abused him and were also poor. While I was growing up he worked 2 jobs to support his family. He knew better than to go out and kill someone because of a social gap. You just do what you gotta do. And I am not saying that it is right that I would want someone killed for killing my daughter, but how the f*** wouldn't I?

I hope this makes sense. I am having to wrap my internet time up since I am at work. I will read through later and edit if needed... [img]smileys/smilies_05.gif[/img]

[smokycat]

lgood---I went to UT also! I've met Dr. Bass also. There's an awesome book called Stiff: the Curious Lives of Human Cadavers by Mary Roach. It is funny and fascinating! It has a chapter about what types of things they do to your body when you donate it to science.

[smokycat]

Sorry--failed to see that someone already mentioned the book--didn't mean to repeat[img]smileys/smilies_01.gif[/img]

[crimgoddess]

The thing is, if you continually ram your head against the wall you may not bring it down, but you can at least make some cracks. I'm really angry that you were told not to be a parole officer because you are 'too empathetic' and 'see the good in people'- Tosay that, that wouldmake you a bad P.O. is absolute bulls***. If anything, that is an asset on the job, because I know for a fact that if the guys have a P.O. who who treats them with respect and believes in them, it makes them less likely to go out there and do something stupid.


I may not be able to change the entire system in my lifetime, but I CAN help some of the people who are in the current system fix the damage that has been done. And yes, its frustrating, especially when someone who is doing well and making plans for the future ends up going back to prison for a breach, or getting into a fight at the institution and getting sent back up to max. But all you can do is keep going. If I gave up altogether or threw my hands up in frustration I wouldn't be doing anyone any good.


This is also the predominant reason why I am going into teaching at the University level- my current beliefs are the result of professors challenging what I previously believed, and suggesting that I try volunteer work to broaden my point of view. I also know that I am not alone in this- one professor in particular really seemed to influence a lot of us, and what we wanted to do in life. Unfortunately, he is getting older and will likely be retiring at some point in the near future (he keeps threatening to, but I hope he hangs on for another decade or so, lol).


So, even though I may not be able to change how we view corrections and help people open their minds to alternatives- the people I will teach might, or the people they influence might. In February I was at a conference in Tasmaniaon the abolition of the current penal system. Looking around, I was really pleased because there was a decent number of people there, and if we could all influence at least 5 people who in turn influence 5 people and so on, we CAN make a difference from below. It will take time, but in the end it will be worth it.


A friend of one of my professors had a saying "live your life so it doesn't make a mockery of your beliefs". Essentially, that is what I'm doing. I could finish my masters and instead of pursuing a PhD end up taking a jobat Correctional Services CanadaNational and making a load of cash- but what would that achieve? I don't want my income to come from an organization who's job it is essentially to marginalize people.


So.....in beating my head against the wall, I do get headaches- but in the end I have a hard head. It's bound to make cracks somewhere.


*amber*

[shiva]

Amber,
I think you are on the right track with teaching. When I think of how influenceble some of my professors have been on my life and my beliefs, it's almost overwhelming. So, yeah, I guess that would be a good start. I have considered it myself, but I am not sure if I have what it takes to get through all of the school. Actually, I know I have what it takes, but maybe I am unwilling to give myself to it at this time. I am always reluctant in taking my time away from Jade. (my daughter) Maybe when I am 50!?

For a long time I was very certain that I wanted to be a parole officer. I thought it would be very gratifying to be a key element in these people's lives to help 'change' them, or keep them straight. Then I was asked how I would feel if I couldn't help them, if I would take it personally. I guess I would. But, in any job where I felt I failed I would beat myself up, you know? Christ, I currently work for a company who sells cameras and makes prints. We specialize in color correcting and printing for professionals. If someone does a shoot and didn't have the right exposure and I can't fix that, I take it personally. It's just me. Regardless of my job. Anyway... On top of being "too empathetic", the career counselor also said I was getting too old to be a parole officer. (I am 28). Never heard that one, either.
Now I am stuck here. Going through school with no idea what it is I am striving for. Fun fun.

Anyway... Obviously I see your side to this issue. But, I have to say I am still extremely fascinated by forensic science and body farms. I think in the original post I was more upset that communities were protesting the farms not because of beliefs such as yours, but because they just thought it was 'gross'. However, most people do want answers when it is their loved one who was found dead and this is a great way to get those answers. These people made me upset because they came off as being ignorant. They could understand the benefit of having the body farms, but didn't want them in thier community.

The only editing I would do to my above post is my last paragraph where I talked about my dad enduring abuse, his dad being abandoned, all of them being poor and struggling with social issues, but knowing that it's unacceptable to murder. I didn't mean to come off with the kind of "my mom smoked with me, and I am fine" mentality (just incase it did come off as so). I just mean that many people are faced with the same issues, yet are not a threat to society.


Smokeycat and lgood,
Wow! What an awesome opportunity!

Monica,
Have you heard about the bodyfarm contraversy in Ashtabula?

[harmonygirl72]

This is interesting to me. I had never heard of it before. Do you know if they only take bodies that are complete or can you still donate your organs first? I feel strongly about being an organ donor....


Mary

[shiva]

I think it's just complete bodies, but here's a link if you wanna check it out

http://www.deathsacre.com/

[shiva]

I thought of something else..
These farms are not only helping educate people to figure out 'whodunnit', but also helpful in training people to identify bodies.