OT- Need reassurance on a political topic

[confusedgirl]

I do not have a problem with anyone immigrating to our country in search of a better life. However, do so LEGALLY. There is one word that people keep over looking in the whole argument and that is ILLEGAL. These people are in our contry illegally, so just by being here they are breaking the law. I do not have any problems with legal US citizens who are Mexican, African, Australian, Canadian, Lithuanian or whatever, because, in a sense, everyone who is in the United States who is not Native American (Indian) is basically an immigrant. My problem is when these people come to our country illegally and then demand the same rights as those who are here legally, feed off of our generosity, take a mile when we give an inch, and demand that we learn their language. How about we get together 20,000 Americans andgo illegally into Mexico, get jobs, work a while, then march in the streets and demand equal rights of other Mexican citizens, do you really think that the Mexican government would give us free healthcare, free education, change all of their signs to Spanish and American, and use that government funded education to teach us to speak Spanish? I don't think they would, we would either be deported, or laughed at. I think the US has given the illegals enough in that we haven't deported them, and that goes for ANY illegal.


Yes, there are lots of jobs that Americans refuse to take, we see that everyday with bums sitting on the side of the road begging for money. Yes, this country, at the current time, does needpeople willing to work the lower endjobs, becauseAmericans have such a snot nosed, high and mighty, elitist attitude thatmany won't work a job unless it pays 30K a year. At least the Mexicans are willing to work, and work dang hard, but please, go through the right channels to become a citizen and I'll give you all the work you can handle. Yes it is a complicated and drawn out process to become a citizen, but somehow thousands of immigrants from all over the world do it every year.


Now... for the important question... whose soapbox is this and how did I get up here? *Climbs down from soapbox, tucks tail between legsand goes back to hide in the corner*

This is Exactly how I feel! I have friends of all different cultures, and know people who have immigrated from many different places and they are awesome people. I'm glad they came to this country ^^ One of my friends' families is illegal - but they are all going through the process to become legal. It is long and hard, but they are putting in the effort to do it. I wish the process was easier.. I know it's very frustrating for their family that it's been years of work and they're still not legal... but I still believe people should become legal when moving to and working in a new country. And our health care system is messed up, I wish the US had the health care system that Canada has - so anyone can get treatment without the high cost. o and I'm pretty politically liberal, but I try not to be a hypocrite... though many liberals (and conservatives) are.

[japa]

Well, the sad part here is that sending an illegal immigrant away from a cancer center untreated won't do a thing to rectify the injustice that occurred to your friend. It is nice to find a scapegoat for the anger we all feel at the injustice of our healthcare system.


Yet, I'd even hazard to say that completely expelling all illegals from our country would not change a thing about what happened to your friend with cancer. The two things are not connected.Citizens in the U.S. who need health treatment will continue to go without if they aren't among the upper classes.

And also I can't believe the outrage that some people have that someone would be treated for cancer in your country. You have amazing facilities and your country used them to save people who couldn't otherwise afford to get better. But.....they're not the right people? Be so proud of your country for offering that out. I know I would be. Or if not what was your solution, for the person with cancer and no way of treatment?


Isn't having to pay high fee's for medical treatment something you need to take up with your government? Forgive me if I'm not talking sense btw it is very late lol but I'm honestly baffled that you are mad your country would offer cancer treatment to someone because they were not born there

The only reason this upsets me is because I have a relative who had cancer, and is unable to buy a home, and her credit is ruined because of her cancer treatments that weren't covered by the insurance that she paid into for years!! Tell me why that is fair??

[Girlygirl1980s]

Japa - their health care is free - Medicaid.

[babygap5]

The bottom line is.... illegal immigrants in ANY country are ILLEGAL!!!! They are breaking the law. I love the fact that America is diverse, and I think its great if people want to be a part of America, the LEGAL way. There are laws that were put in place, whether you agree with them or not, and the illegals are breaking the law. If they want to be here legally, they can get green cards or work visas. They could get sponsored by their employers.


I know this topic is a hot debate and I love engaging in the discussion, but I just hope that we can all get passed our personal opinions enough to continue to support each other with our emet related issues.


Judy

[mommyof3]

Hippychick--we had a politician a few years back who tried to get a whole bunch of social problems fixed, but some people were more concerned with his sex life and conveniently shone the spolight on that instead. So *poof* there went our universal health care. Bad decision on his part, too, but how convenient!


I only have catastrophic health care insurance that I only get at a somewhat affordable rate because I am in relatively good health. I have to pay up to $2500/yearin addition to the premiumsand can't ever get pregnant again (at least if I want to afford it!). My husband gets his insurance from his employer. My kids qualify for a state program with low premiums because we can't afford my husband's insurance at $800/month. So, I have a bachelor's degree, my husband has a master's and I'm thinking today that I can't afford one medication I need and will probably be stopping at my dr.'s today for a free sample of another drug I need--hopefully they'll have it or I'll have to have her prescribe a cheaper, less effective drug.


But do I want to trade places with a desperate soul coming across the border? Even if they do get medicaid? Not in a million years.

[dord]

Illegal - what more is there to debate?I understand them wanting to come to this country for the opportunity at a better life,what I don't get and it pisses me off to no end is coming here and then waving the flag of the country you so desperately wanted to leave in my face. You're here now - please wave the flag of the country you were so desperate to enter that you did it illegally.

[kimmyc24]

Whoah things got a bit tense there for a while..


Well I'm a Caucasian South African and I've come to the UK (legally) to live and work.


I am NOT about to get into a debate about the political situation in my home country, and i'm not too keen on giving an opinion on the political situation in the UK (or US for that matter).


I will just say this - coming from South Africa, I feel that Tony Blair is doing a pretty good jobin this country. I feel so much safer here and I feel more welcome. I also feel like he is more in control than the SA government is.


There are PLENTY of immigrants in the UK - legal and illegal - and they are from ALL OVER THE WORLD!! I have met people from Poland, Czech Republic, America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, East Africa, West Africa, Jamaica etc etc etc and the way the country seems to function with SO many diverse cultures living together really amazes me. I'm surprised there isn't more conflict than there is.


I live in an area in London that is predominantly Asian. This means that although I am in England, I cannot buy bacon in my local store or in my High Street. I have to go to a Supermarket. My partner and I are not part of the majority in this neighbourhood, and sometimes we do feel a bit uncomfortable and like we don't fit in. But I STILL feel more welcome andsafehere than I do in South Africa.


I think we should just accept that people are always going to go where 'the grass is greener' in search of better opportunities. I came here, along with about 1 million other South Africans in search of a better life and better opportunities. I happen to have a British passport, but some of us have to come with 2 year working visa's. Other's just hop in a crate and onto a boat and hope for the best.

[crimgoddess]

Seriously- what is with this whole flag crap? For a country who claims to be tolerant of other cultures, this is a real contradiction.


My boyfriend lived in California for a year and a half. He put up a Canadian Flag on his balcony for the 1st of July (Canada Day) because he was missing home, and his neighbours bitched him out for being "unamerican", and that he didn't have the "right" to raise the flag of his country.


This to me is complete BULL- what, people are no longer allowed to have PRIDE for their origins? In no other country will you find this flag BS-why is it that in the states if it doesn't have stars or stripes it it somehow WRONG or OFFENSIVE? Can someone explain this to me? I don't get the idea that by having pride in where you came from, it automatically is an insult to where you are now. So many people here display flags from their home countries, and no one views it an an 'insult to Canada'. We just figure, "oh, that person must be from _____".


(of course, I'm sure that not all Americans are this way about the whole flag issue, but this seems to be a prevailing discourse and it all seems so petty)


*amber*Edited by: crimgoddess

[dord]

I myselfam extremelypassionate about the flag because my Grandfather, Dad, my husband, his Dad and his Grandfatherare allwar veterans whohave put their lives on the line defending that flag on foreign soil.It's offensive to us (the aforementioned) to havepeople who are willing to protest forrights in this country but they are unwilling to wave the flagof the USA.I'm not talking about flying the flag of their origin on their homeor having it hang from their rear-view mirror, I've got no problem with that.Pride of the origins, I get that, but no pride in being where they are? Why not hold both flags??

[shiva]

I am not buying the fact that many people on here only have a problem with the immigration being ILLEGAL. I seriously feel there is more to it than that which is fueling people's ignorance on the subject. Otherwise, people would not have a problem with the Mexican flag and so many stereotypes about Mexican immigrants would not be brought to the table. I think that there are some bigoted people out there who are hiding behind the word ILLEGAL. That's my oppinion.

Just like the story Crim gave of her boyfriend hanging a Canadian flag. Why the f*** would the neighbors have a problem with that??? People can't be proud of who they are? People still fly f***ing rebel flags and I don't hear people bitch half as much about it. Isn't this the "melting pot"???? I guarentee that most of our families did not speak English when they came here. I am sure it took time. It's not like they can just come here and immediately know our language. As Japa said.. It does feel great to be ethnocentric, huh?

Okay here's one...
Say that there were more terrorist attacks on the United States and you knew that you could easily get into Canada and be safe and give your family a home where they would be safe and you knew that you could work for a while until you could save money to become legal in Canada. Say that although this was illegal, you understood that the Canadian government was allowing it to happen and kinda looking the other way as you crossed the border into their country. But if you stayed in the United States, your family did not have much of a chance. You do not have time to try to save the money and wait for the paper work. The time is now. It's either do something 'illegal' or save your family and survive. What would you do???? Anyone on here who says they would save the money and wait and wait for the paperwork to go through for years and years might not be being as honest with themselves as they think.
Think of all the illegal things that people do every damn day... Come on and get past the whole illegal point. Isn't it something more than that that is bothering you?


Edited by: shiva

[shiva]

Dord, I agree that holding both flags would have definitely been the better choice. However, these people are just (in my opinion) using the flags as a symbol of who they are. I think people are thinking way too hard about the flags.

[kimmyc24]

GEEZ if I had to fly the flag of all my origins, I would have a lot of flags flying! I am from South AFrica, I am living in the UK, and I am half Scottish and half South African. My Grandparents were French.


I have seen SO many South African flags up in windows in London and it makes me excited to think that there are people from my home country showing off their origin. (I also think: 'Cool, there are South African's living there')


But I doubt that my English friends feel as if those peopleare being ANTI or unproud of the UK. Thats not the case at all. Why fly a flag of the country if you are IN the country? To me thats like stating the obvious!

[princessmel]

I don't have much to say b/c I think it's bulls*** that they even let illegals in. It's not right.

[aguerra29]

I completely agree with you Dord. You are in this country, be proud of that. I am proud of my Peruvian heritage as is my father. Every school report I had to do was on Peru in some form or fashion. It is who I am, but I put my hand on my heart and face the flag of the United States of America when I hear the National Anthem. I proudly said the PLedge of Allegiance in school. I may be proud of my heritage, as is my right, but I am American. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. This goes for the radical Muslims too. If you hate American culture so much - get the f**k out! My friend was a teacher in a New Jersey elementary school for a short time and one of her students (a muslim) would not stand up for the pledge of alligence. She made that girl stand up - she told her "You don't have to say it, but you will respect this country and you will stand up. I say Amen!

[harmonygirl72]

Wow. I was the first person to respond to this and I can't believe how far it has gone on! I don't have a lot to add. Basically I agree with amber, shiva and japa quite a bit. Shiva, I agree with almost everything you say, but you should probably watch the name-calling or this thread might get locked. No one likes to be called a f***ing bigot.


Mary

[shiva]

Mary, you are right.. Remember when we were called "Tree Hugging Hippies" and that was supposed to be an insult! LOL!
I am feeling very passionately about this one I guess.

[harmonygirl72]

Haha, I am proud to be a tree-hugging hippy, and I can understand your passion!


Mary

[crimgoddess]

hahahaha- I wouldn't mind being called a tree-hugging hippie, because the last time I checked their ideals were peace, love, and harmony....ya know, as opposed to capitalism, entitlement, and Me! Me! Me!


*amber*

[shiva]

There, I edited it a bit as an attempt to not insult anyone : ) Is that a little better? I don't want this one getting closed either.

[hippychick]

I do have a basic issue with people saying "It's illegal. End of"


If I tell you a man stole food. Broke into a shop and stole food and asked if it was wrong what would you say? Yes. Stealing is wrong. It's ILLEGAL. End of. Black and white.


Ok what about if I tell you this man was a victim in Hurricane Katrina, he and his family have had no food for 3 days, their house is gone, their money is gone they have nothing. Literally nothing and they are starving and when is help coming????? But there is a shop, and in it he can get what he needs for he and his family to survive. Is it wrong because it's technically illegal?

[shiva]

Please PM me if you think anything else should be edited.

[hippychick]

Also if all this comes down to is point a.) ILLEGAL! and point b.) they get free healthcare and I don't. Shouldn't point B? The insane cost of healthcare be something thatyour own government, Mr Bush, needs to deal with? I'm willing to bet even if you gave up on all the free stuff you'd still be in this situation. Is that really what it comes down to?

[crimgoddess]

Yeah, the thing about studying criminology is that you discover that people have more deep-rooted prejudices that they don't realize affect their opinions and understanding of certain events.


People are okay with illegalities in some circumstances- but in others they are unforgiveable. It is also okay for certain "types" of people to do something illegal, while it isn't for others.


People tend to tout the system as being "a wonderful source of justice" for them when it suits their politico-economic desires- but when the system is ineffective and injust, their focus becomes on the individuals, not the wider context.


*amber*

[Girlygirl1980s]

It's kind of funny that people outside of the US seem to feel this whole illegal immigrant thing is just fine. I don't think you would like it if people came to your country illegally and had a "free ride" while you work your fingers to the bone and sometimes have to "do without." It just isn't fair any way you look at it.

[aguerra29]

I was thinking along those same lines. People who don't live in this country really have no room to have an opinion. You only know what you read or see on TV. You don't live with it on a daliy basis. I would never dare comment on political issues in the UK, Austrailia, Canada. I could not possibly make an intelligent statement regarding the issues in those countries.

[hippychick]

People DO come to the UK illegally and plenty of people here live off of benefits, some of whom don't need to, while I work. Am I happy about it?? Hell no but do I blame ALL people on benefits? Again Hell no because I've been one of them and things are never black and white. You can't blame a group as a whole for the sins of some.


Unless I'm being naive here, do all illegal immigrants in your country have a "free ride" and do nothing?? That's an honest question. Because the way the media are saying it some businesses had to shut during protests b/c of lack of staff.


Many honest and valuble points have been raised here by people inside and out of the US. If you have an argument in reply then I'm open to hear it beyond "They're ILLEGAL" because I just don't buy it fora second. I'll freely admit I don't know all the details of politics and what happens in your country. But I know enough to form an opinion. If you think I'm wrong don't tell me I can't understand, educate me.


I'm willing to have my mind changed in any debate, I'm always thinking and re-thinking everything. Nothing I've heard yet changes my mind.


Edited by: hippychick

[shiva]

No, they do not just come here and have a free ride and do nothing.
And yes, I do live here.

[aguerra29]

I think the issue gets clouded amid all this protests. I'm not even sure the protestors know what they are protesting about.

Anyone coming to this country either legally or illegally needs to be "documented". We need to know who is here. (Anyone remember Rafeal Racindez-Ramirez - the railcar killer). They can still send they're kids to school (I would prefer that to the alternative of a bunch of uneducated people). THey can still do the menial manual labor that other Americans won't do (thank goodness for someone being willing to do our dirty-work). I just have a few simple requests - learn the language and be documented. If you are here without documentation - you get deported. Especially now that the Mexico is going to make drugs legal - we really need to tighten our borders.

I saw on the news last night that Holland is imposing very strict immigration laws. You have to speak Dutch before you can immigrate there and you have to take some sort of test on the culture.

It doesn't make be a f***ing bigot to want to limit the number of illegal immigrants that cross the borders on a daily basis.

Someone said earlier in the thread that maybe we should focus on Mexico since that country's situation is what is causing the influx of people. Absolutely - but what do you do when the president of Mexico calls for "open borders" between Mexico and US so his people can come here? I mean he's not fixing anything there. WHat do you do with a society that is so Catholic that they will not practice birth control and have more children than they can feed? When do we stop trying to cover of a 10 in gash with a band-aid? When do we just cut our losses and amputate? Is it our responsibility to ensure every country is up to our standards? How much money do you think the US has? Especially when we are spending $80 billion on a pointless war.

[mommyof3]

Where I live, illegals mostly do migrant work--picking apples and cherries. They work for next to nothing doing the work that no one else will do and sending most of it back to their impoverished families. So we get cheap fruit and end up paying the other way for state medical assistance. What's the difference? How about we make the employers accountable for providing their health insurance?


Aguerra--watch the religious comments, please. I'm not Catholic and I was offended.Edited by: mommyof3

[crimgoddess]

Gee- I didnt know Canada didnt have any illegal immigrants!!! I should tell that to the people in my old neighbourhood, they will be glad to know that since we don't have any illegals, they must be legal!


The mentality of "well, you don't live here so you have no right to an opinion" is just ignorant and short sighted.It allows you to easily discard opinions on country lines....but what about the people in your OWN country who feel thesame way Ido?Or what about the fact that I have spent a LOT of time in the states, have family there, and a boyfriend that used to live there?


Following the mentality of "well you don't live here shut up", then no one in North America should have the right to say anything about the hideous genocides that are going on in Africa right now, because we don't live there and thus shouldn't care.


I'm sorry, when I get something in my mailbox that I find blatantly disrespectful and racist, I'm GOING to have an opinion on it and I'm GOING to state it.


*amber*