Past Lives

[daffodil]

I have to agree with Crystalmom and Japa on the statement that nobody is born 'bad'. I believe we are born innocent, with a clean slate. As we grow and mature, we make our decisions, and nature as well as nurture contribute to who we become as adults, but the idea that we are inherently bad or sinful does not sit well with me. I believe that a little spark of god is within all of us, if that makes any sense.

[pianolover]

Japa, your first paragraph is very clear. That's about how I would put it too! But I'm not quite sure about this part:

From what I understand, it is not that all of humanity is born inherently bad, but it is that we are born with the potential to sin. We will never be perfect as Jesus was. We will do sinful things, but I never understood that to mean that we are born inherently bad. We are born with the potential to be good and the potential to be bad, and our free will that God allowed us determines which we choose.


I don't know. I don't like to think of the idea that all people are inherently bad or that a beautiful baby can be born bad. I think that the good outweighs the bad in people.

Just because you don't like to think of an idea doesn't mean it isn't true. I know that isn't the point of this discussion, but I just wanted to point that out as well. I don't like to think about war or the Holocaust or the Cambodian genocide or any of the other terrible things that mankind has done, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.


As for the potential to be good or bad, the Bible says that no one is good, only God alone. I take that literally. I know I was born sinful and I will die sinful, and the only goodness in me is fromChrist dwelling in me. It also says that we can do nothing good on our own, and I think that is true too - we can't be "good" without God.


Gotta go, but maybe more later? I still love this topic!!

[japa]

O.K. I will rephrase that. I don't like to think that any human being is inherently bad.


AND -- I don't believe from my years as a practicing Catholic that that is what Christianity espouses. It's not what I ever learned as a Catholic. Of course, you are saying that you and the Christianity that you have learned are interpreting the Bible literally. We all know that there are SO many ways to interpret the Bible. So it may be a different interpretation. What sect of Christianity are you?


I guess that I don't see that being born "sinful" means being born completely bad. It means being bornnot perfect as God is -- being born with an ability to do bad things.

Japa, your first paragraph is very clear. That's about how I would put it too! But I'm not quite sure about this part:

From what I understand, it is not that all of humanity is born inherently bad, but it is that we are born with the potential to sin. We will never be perfect as Jesus was. We will do sinful things, but I never understood that to mean that we are born inherently bad. We are born with the potential to be good and the potential to be bad, and our free will that God allowed us determines which we choose.


I don't know. I don't like to think of the idea that all people are inherently bad or that a beautiful baby can be born bad. I think that the good outweighs the bad in people.

Just because you don't like to think of an idea doesn't mean it isn't true. I know that isn't the point of this discussion, but I just wanted to point that out as well. I don't like to think about war or the Holocaust or the Cambodian genocide or any of the other terrible things that mankind has done, but that doesn't mean they didn't happen.


As for the potential to be good or bad, the Bible says that no one is good, only God alone. I take that literally. I know I was born sinful and I will die sinful, and the only goodness in me is fromChrist dwelling in me. It also says that we can do nothing good on our own, and I think that is true too - we can't be "good" without God.


Gotta go, but maybe more later? I still love this topic!!

Edited by: japa

[hippychick]

I'm sorry but I find itstrange the notion that no one can be good without God in their life, let me rephrase that, no one can be good and the only chance we have of being saved is with God in our lives. I know people who are out there everyday, volunteering their lives, helping people, talking to people, offering people a second chance at life and giving themselves and their time who do not accept God or any religion and the idea that these people would not be considered good just because they have not accepted God is the basic issue I have with religion.


You helped people, you saved lives, you did nothing but positive and loving things but sorry no entry because you didn't accept your sins and God into your life? That's not even a religion I want to be a part of. Sorry if this sounds offensive because I don't mean it to be, it's just how I feel.


The topic at hand is past lives. I wonder if it's better to stick to just that then move on because this is a discussion people always feel very passionate about.

[japa]

Well, as far as I know, Catholicism and Protestantism do not uphold the concept of past lives.

I'm sorry but I find itstrange the notion that no one can be good without God in their life, let me rephrase that, no one can be good and the only chance we have of being saved is with God in our lives. I know people who are out there everyday, volunteering their lives, helping people, talking to people, offering people a second chance at life and giving themselves and their time who do not accept God or any religion and the idea that these people would not be considered good just because they have not accepted God is the basic issue I have with religion.


You helped people, you saved lives, you did nothing but positive and loving things but sorry no entry because you didn't accept your sins and God into your life? That's not even a religion I want to be a part of. Sorry if this sounds offensive because I don't mean it to be, it's just how I feel.


The topic at hand is past lives. I wonder if it's better to stick to just that then move on because this is a discussion people always feel very passionate about.

[crimgoddess]

Hippy- I completely agree with you. In the realm of prisoners rights advocacy, there are many people who consider themselves atheists (one man that I met at an event even had a tattoo that read "Jesus died for his own sins, not mine"). They are the ones travelling to visit people in prison, advocating on their behalf, and trying to help people who are genuinely in need. Meanwhile, I have met many people who go through the motions of religion (church, youth groups, etc.) yet advocate for the death penalty, or view people in prisons as disgraceful heathens (yep...those were actual words that I have heard someone use). If the people who have dedicated their lives to helping others aren't viewed as "worthy" of heaven, but those who are of a certain religion who don't do anything to help anyone beyond themself make it in, then I wouldn't want to be part of it anyway.


I was raised roman-catholic. I was told all my life that the bible was to be taken literally, and that it emphatically stated that catholicism was for/against certain isses (homosexuality being one of them). However, when I was older and began to question these things for myself, I really ended up taking a different view of the bible. Essentially, I see it as a collection of heavily revised parables that were influenced by the beliefs and prejudices of the authors and editors. I do see value in some of it- mainly those sections which promote love and acceptance. Other areas can easily be used to promote hate and "us vs them"- as Japa mentioned, there are many interpretations, and some have been used in the past for this purpose.


Musings from the agnostic who doesn't believe in organized religion......it's just not for me


*amber*Edited by: crimgoddess

[horselover]

Hi


Im 17 and im a christian. I believe in life after death. but i dont believe that we die and then straight away become something else. I believe we die, go to heaven spend time with ours familys and everyone, and then we decide whether or not we want to have another life on earth. we dont have to, we could remain in heaven if we wanted for ever and ever. thats what im looking forward to, i cant wait to die, im not scared or nothing, i had an expereince about it that i will never forget.

[pianolover]

Maybe hippychick is right and we should stick to Monica's original topic . . . sorry for the hijacking, Monica!


As far as I know, there's nothing in the Bible on past lives or reincarnation. There is one section that alludes to Elijah's returning as John the Baptist, but this may or may not mean the physical reincarnation, I'm not sure from the context and it's debatable. In any case, Catholicism and Protestantism are VERY different, so whatever Amber and others learned growing up Catholic might be very different from Christian beliefs.


I don't believe in past lives myself.

[samara's on tv]

Okay getting back to the past lives discussion, I wastalking to my dad today about death again because it's been on my mind ever since I started this topic. I told him about the message board and how one person (Amber...don't worry I didn't use names) didn't believe there was anything after death. My dad said "Well some people believe it but I've never doubted that there is life after death. There's SO much proof that there is."


I really wish I could be like my dad and just have complete faith in reincarnation. He's read countless books on the subject, and has had religious mentors. He meditates once a day, sometimes twice. He has spiritual visions when he meditates...how can you "Fake" that? Is there something in the brain that WOULD fake that?


See the one thing I think is an argument that there is such thing as a soul is our feelings and beliefs. I mean no one MADE us emetophobic, and although it can be traced to childhood truama, maybe it was something we were just born with. And think about it, we all have different views/opinions on different things. I mean we develope our own feelings. Somethings that would make me cry wouldn't make you cry...we are all different. There has to be something behind that. Different life expereinces sure, but there is something else.


Any arguments to the contrary?


~Monica

[crimgoddess]

<<<Okay getting back to the past lives discussion, I wastalking to my dad today about death again because it's been on my mind ever since I started this topic. I told him about the message board and how one person (Amber...don't worry I didn't use names) didn't believe there was anything after death. My dad said "Well some people believe it but I've never doubted that there is life after death. There's SO much proof that there is." >>>


I view the 'proof' of reincarnation as dubious at best- most of the 'evidence' is anecdotal, and some of it can be explained using other means. I think, inevitably, you need to make a leap of faith as it pertains to this issue. Your father, who is prepared to make that leap, will view these incidents as "proof", as he already believed in this notion. For someone who doesn't (myself), I view this "proof" as inconsequential. And don't worry about using names, lol, doesn't really bother me


As for faking it- our brains are very prone to the power of suggestion. I do think that the majority of the "tunnel bright light" classic story of people who have what they call "near death experiences" are the result of that being the popular discourse relating to the topic in the media. You hear about it often, internalize it, and inevitably when in a situation where you are prone to hallucination, that is what you see. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy- like when people are so convinced that something will make them ill that they become ill (ie- their minds make them ill).


<<< the one thing I think is an argument that there is such thing as a soul is our feelings and beliefs. I mean no one MADE us emetophobic, and although it can be traced to childhood truama, maybe it was something we were just born with. And think about it, we all have different views/opinions on different things. I mean we develope our own feelings. Somethings that would make me cry wouldn't make you cry...we are all different. There has to be something behind that. Different life expereinces sure, but there is something else. >>>


I think this is attributed to culture, family, life experiences, and even to some extent genetics. To me this has really nothing to do with the possibility of past lives, but more to do with what was done to us and by us in this one. Although on the surface we may all seem extremely different, when looking at the larger picture we are all very much alike as a species. Some opinions and emotional responses may differ, but largely, we have similar instincts and habits, especially in comparison to members of our own culture.


LOL- did I mention that I was a massive skeptic? Can ya tell?


*amber*

[samara's on tv]

Well as Amber said the brain is prone to hullucinations...and near death expereinces can be explained by the media and internalizing...but what about people who report going to hell in a near death expereince? I read about this one guy who didn't believe in god, didn't believe in life after death, and he had a near death expereince and he went to hell. He saw a bunch of people he didn't know, and he was in pain, and there was lots of screaming. Until that point he was a skeptic just like you and I'm sure he probably didn't read up on death like my dad did (as he explains in the story) but since then he's changed his life.


Or what about CHILDREN who have near death expereinces? I mean I'm sure they aren't reading or even watching programs about death...and they report the same things...a tunnel and a light...are they also warped by the media? I highly doubt that.


~Monica

[crimgoddess]

<<<Well as Amber said the brain is prone to hullucinations...and near death expereinces can be explained by the media and internalizing...but what about people who report going to hell in a near death expereince? I read about this one guy who didn't believe in god, didn't believe in life after death, and he had a near death expereince and he went to hell. He saw a bunch of people he didn't know, and he was in pain, and there was lots of screaming. Until that point he was a skeptic just like you and I'm sure he probably didn't read up on death like my dad did (as he explains in the story) but since then he's changed his life. >>>


This to me likely relates to residual guilt about NOT believing in god, life after death, etc. Even if you have lived under a rock for the past 20 years, I am sure you have heard about "hell"- or what people believe about hell. It doesn't seem unfathomable that when faced with a situation where your own death may be imminent, your guilt about how you have lived your life may surface in this way. Just look at dreams- how many people have had horrible dreams about them doing bad things or bad things happening to them? A lot of what we experience in dreams is related to what is currently going on in our lives- our brains just present it in a different way.


I can list off a few people who have had bad drug trips who will also claim that they experienced what the man you mentioned described- I'm willing to bet it was the drugs combined with the guilt about doing drugs.


<<<Or what about CHILDREN who have near death expereinces? I mean I'm sure they aren't reading or even watching programs about death...and they report the same things...a tunnel and a light...are they also warped by the media? I highly doubt that>>>


No, not necessarily warped by the media- but who are they telling these stories to? Likely their parents or other adults, who have the power of influence and interpretation. The children may report that they saw something, and adults, with no ill will, will transform/interpret their stories into something that is more in line with their own beliefs than what the child actually experienced.


Children are very prone to suggestion- so much so that they may even end up believing what was suggested. There were many cases in the 80s of false child abuse allegations that were basically created by parents believing that their children were abused, and unintentionally leading/shaping the children's narratives to be in line with this belief. As a result, they even changed the way that children are allowed to be questioned in court to try to avoid this unintentional leading. It can be so powerful, that some of the children involved to this day still believe that they were abused, even though all the proof says otherwise.


I'm also not convinced that children aren't exposed to the idea of life after death/heaven- it is on television (even sitcoms make jokes about going towards the 'white light'), children's books, and the news- and their ears are like pitchers, you never know what they pick up when you aren't paying attention.


*amber*

[horselover]

i agree with your dad because there is soooo much prove that there is life after death. some people may comment about that, but that is what i believe. i remember reading on the internet with all the prove listed. and at my church meeting we was also talking about scienctist saying "we where made from apes and all this stuff" well we actually found out that there isnt any prove that we where evolved from apes.


and with me being christian i also believe being here on earth everyone is here to learn something, and maybe one thing for all of us to learn is emetphoiba, maybe this is something we are hear to try and get over.


Im not saying everyone should believe because they dont have to. im just saying i believe and i agree with her dad that there is PROVE.

[crystalmom]

Although 'proof' may be able to be debated, I must agree that there is so many accounts of people who have had near-death experiences and have seen things to which they can not even explain.


When my grand-father dies recently, I went to say good-bye before the funeral home came, and it was only a shell of my grandpa. I knew he wan't there, and I could tell that this body I was looking at was merely a vehichle in which we travel in this life.


As for being no proof that we have not eveolved, I must disagree. there are THOUSANDS of scientists, historians, ect that do believe and can respute unequvically (sp) that we have evolved over millions of years and that our closest ancestors are that of an ape. Have you ever watched a gorilla at the zoo or on tv. They are so much like us, with no ablity to understand our language, but their actions are so close.


In light of this being a debate, and this is in no way meant to be offensive to anyone, but can you possibly PROVE that what the bible says is FACT??? Yet, we can prove beyond any reasonable doubt that evolution has brought us to where we are. This is including reincarnation. If christianity does not believe in reincarnation, there are other faiths who belive very deeply that past lives are definate. So who is right? We can not as a christian-based society be so 'holier than thou' (excuse the pun) that we are right and those others are wrong. Obviously the hard-coremuslims believe that in their 'bible' the americans aer evil and should be destroyed. How is that right? It's not. We know that, and so do most muslims (sp). But, it is their belief.


Anyway, what I am trying to say, is that no ONE belief could possibly know ALL the answers. No ONE person could possibly know what was, or will be.


Just my thoughts....don't wanna tick anyoneoff.


Crystal

[dita]

Part of "faith" is just believeing. I believe the Bible is true w/o a doubt. I have faith in God that it is true. Just because there isn't proof to everything doesn't mean it's not right. However, I do see evidence everyday that backs up my beliefs.

[japa]

I know what you're saying crystalsmom. It's sure is a tough one. For every Christian who believes that the Bible is divine revelation and that Jesus is the one true God, you can find a Muslim who believes that the Quran is divine revelation and Allah is the one true God.


And eastern religions believe in reincarnation, like you said. There are a plethora of religious beliefs and an abundance of people who are sure that theirs are the only right way.


They can't all be right?


Or can they?

[japa]

O.K., I have a question of curiosity for those who believe in reincarnation.


Have you had any experiences with finding out about your past lives? Any past life regressions or anything like that? Whom do you believe you were in a past life.


O.K. That was not a question but questionS. If any spark your interest, then fill me in.

[samara's on tv]

I have never personally had any expereince in finding out about my past lives but my dad is sure that he knows of one of his. He remembers being a Native American and his wife was a woman named Greyfeather and she was my mother. I want to do past life regretion but my dad thinks that sometimes it can do more harm then good.


I believe that I drowned in a past life. I've always hated water (I mean I take showers and everything) but oceans and lakes and pools always bothered me and even though I know how to swim I hate going under water. Once again I wasn't RAISED to be afraid of water, on the contrary, my parents did everything they could to teach me how to swim but I was always scared of water. How do you explain that? I've never had ONE bad expereince with being in water (Well one but that was still AFTER the fact...I mean I've hated water all my life and the incident had nothing to do with almost drowning) So how do you explain my fear of water?


I think I believe in fate, I mean like this one girl I met I think I'm supposed to be with her but it's going to be hard. I once had a dream where I was standing outside of two churches. One was beautiful with wide open doors, and one was also beautiful but there was a huge fence in front of it and police officers, and all these obsticles preventing me from going in. I could have gone into the church with the open door but I chose the church with all the obsticles. When I finally got inside it was the most beautiful church I had ever seen. To me that HAS to mean something right?


Anyway getting back to past lives, I think we are all connected, and the same people that are in our lives right now have been with us our whole lives. Sometimes we have to say goodbye to friends, but if they have touched our lives then they were MEANT to do that, you know?


~Monica

[crystalmom]

Japa....I do believe in reincarnation, and although I have never been to a past life regression (yet) my mom has, and she found some amazing things.


First, she was told that she died on titanic, which she always known anyway. She is petrified of water, and has always been enthralled with the Titanic as well.


But, this is the amazing one...she went to see this lady who is no longer living in our town. Anyhoo, she went back to a time she was very unsure of. She was living insomething like theold west. She was sold as a young girl to a very bad man. During this, she was kicked by this man, and during the session, she was brought out of her relaxed state b/c she could not talk due to the dirt that was in her mouth. She said she could taste it and feel it. Now, here's the kicker...you know how alot of people imitate others accents. Well, there is one that my mom CAN NOT do. She cannot imitate persons of native american decent. During the life she visited, she was a native american, and was plaining speaking as such.


Alot of the time, people who are in our lives now, were also in previous lives as well. We rally together on the other side, and basically "write" each other into the next life. For my mom, her daughter was my cousin, and her grand-father figure was her father in this life. Also, our dog from this life, Tracey, who died a couple years ago, was with her on the journey to go back, and was also her pet (a wolf) in that particular life.


Anyway, I find it very interesting, and without a doubt, true. Although, I am still scared of death, and the fear of not knowing anything for sure, upsets me.


Also, I don't think any one religion is right. I believe they all have qualities that are right, since Jesus himself did not write the bible, man did, it cannot be accurate. Plus, the vaticanhas had control for so long. Hundreds of years, molding man (and by this I mean MALE) into what the vatican believes or is pressured to do at that time.


Anyway....debate as well....who thinks that some of the Da Vinci Code could be, fact. That Jesus did marry, and reproduce. I mean, come on, a Jewish man 2000 years ago. He would have been married. Ahhhhhh, the questions we cannot answer until we have gone beyond.


Crystal

[samara's on tv]

I think Jesus was married too because the whole thing about priests being abstinant is a CATHOLIC practice not a JEWISH practice and Jesus was a Jew.


Now I've been thinking a lot and I've always believe that Jesus was a real person (Whether I believed he was the messiah or not is a different story) but if SO many people are going to write about him in the way that they did he must have been ONE HELL of an amazing man. That I can believe. Walking on water? Multiplying Fish and Bread? Turning water into wine? Maybe not...but he must have done something AMAZING for people to remember/write about him like they did.


~Monica

[crimgoddess]

A wee bit OT:


What bothers me the most about the Da Vinci Code (other than the fact that it wasn't terribly well written) are the historical innacuracies that people will inevitably start to view as 'fact'.


Right now, there is little evidence on either side to prove that Jesus was or was not married- it could go either way really.


An article about the Da Vinci Code that may be of interest to some:


http://www.smu.edu/arthuriana/lacy.pdf


*amber*

[pianolover]

OT as well, but important:


"since Jesus himself did not write the bible, man did, it cannot be accurate"


Sorry Crystalmom, I can't see the logic in that one! Is everything man has ever written inaccurate? In any case, Christians (and Jews I believe, as far as the Hebrew Scriptures) believe that the Bible was inspired by God and that the men who wrote it were vehicles, ie. divinely inspired, so in a sense God did put the Bible together, even "write" it if you like. Jesus believed this about all the Scriptures that were written up to His time.


"Plus, the vaticanhas had control for so long. Hundreds of years, molding man (and by this I mean MALE) into what the vatican believes or is pressured to do at that time."


Modern ProtestantBible-based Christianity has very little to do with Catholicism - none of those traditionsfrom those hundreds of years that have to do with traditions of man rather than the Bible.


"Anyway....debate as well....who thinks that some of the Da Vinci Code could be, fact. That Jesus did marry, and reproduce. I mean, come on, a Jewish man 2000 years ago. He would have been married. Ahhhhhh, the questions we cannot answer until we have gone beyond."


The Da Vinci Code is fiction, and the author admits as such. If you research the history of the four Gospels that were written in the first century, I doubt you will be unsure of their accuracy compared to a fictional work from two thousand years later.Edited by: pianolover

[one who squeaks]

I do believe in reincarnation, but I generally keep my beliefs to
myself because they're kind of... odd? I'll just say that I'm quite the
shapeshifter when I dream.



People tend to not take me seriously because I have a disease that will
probably blow out the candles before my 30th birthday. "Oh, you know
you're going to die, so you're afraid and create a fantasy world YOU'RE
IN DENIAL OMG!" Pure psychoanalytic genius.[img]smileys/smilies_05.gif[/img] You see, the flip side is this: I also believe in the possibility that my beliefs are a bunch of nonesense.



...Okay, I just saw someone v* on television, and I need to go clear my head. I'll write more later, LOL. XD

[japa]

Ahhh - we just can't seem to stop talking about this, can we pianolover? [img]smileys/smilies_02.gif[/img]


It's a tough call saying that Protestant-based churches don't have anything in common with Catholicism anymore. The Lutheran service is VERY similar to a Catholic mass, minus the belief in transubstantiation. The Anglican church, and its American version, the Episcopalian still have commonalities in their service.


And I believe that what crystalsmom was speaking about was that the Christian churches, most of them whether Protestant or Catholic, are male centered in their leadership. Catholicism is probably the worst offender in its exclusion of women from positions of leadership in the Church. For me, there was nothing like watching theVatican's procession of mostly elderly men, andperhaps one black and one Hispanic man process intoseclusion to elect the new Pope.It was really tough on my eyes.


However, many Protestant denominations do not allow women in the leadership roles. And as well, the religion of Christianity is based in many ways around women taking a subservient and submissive role in worship and in the family.

OT as well, but important:"Plus, the vaticanhas had control for so long. Hundreds of years, molding man (and by this I mean MALE) into what the vatican believes or is pressured to do at that time."


Modern ProtestantBible-based Christianity has very little to do with Catholicism - none of those traditionsfrom those hundreds of years that have to do with traditions of man rather than the Bible.

[horselover]

hmmm interesting really, im not sure whether i believe if jesus was married. it doesnt say anything like that in the bible. and i believe everything in the bible is true.


oh and also at church i learnt what the each letter could mean that spells the word bible.


B= Basic I= Instructions B= Beofre L= Leaving E= Earth


which i think is true because people will admitt if you read the bible it does send out instructions and also messages.

[pianolover]

Japa,you're right about that part of Christianity - andIguess this would be a bad time to tell you that I'm against women havingleadership roles in the church! I'm all for women being submissive (the Bible says "submit" and "be obedient") in the family and worship, but not "subservient."