What is freaky about noro and other viruses

[mooki]

Viruses like all forms of life are driven primarily by the need for survival and replication. I was reading about this parasite that infects an insect from water it drinks. Then the parasite grows feeding off the bug's tissues, and it then takes over the insects behavior, causes it to find water source and jump in. Then the parasite bursts out of the bug and reproduces in the water to start the process all over again. It's brilliant when you think about it from the parasite's perspective.

Noro is much the same way. This virus wants to survive. It enters your body, starts replicating like crazy in its prime environment which is your gastrointestinal system. Then it takes over your nervous system and sends signals to your brain telling it to vomit and have diarrhea. This act will cause millions of virus particles to spew into the environment ensuring that it finds another host so that it can continue it's survival. The virus has no consciousness and couldn't care less about you. We are just it's means of surviving and it is using our bodies to reproduce and using our vomiting function a convenient way to spread itself to new hosts so that it can replicate and spread even more. When someone with noro vomits in a room and spreads it to others, that virus has done its job and ensured its own survival into the future. It exist for no other reason than to replicate itself. If Noro didn't make you vomit and have diarrhea the virus would've died out shortly after it evolved. Frantically pushing the vomit button in your brain is how it finds news hosts since its time in your body is limited to a few days before your immune system defeats it. What's strange is to put it in an evolutionary perspective. It took this virus tens of thousands of years to "figure out" how our DNA works so that it can hijack our nervous system and send signals to our brain in order to aid the virus in spreading itself. Dogs have viruses that have spent eons figuring out their DNA so dog viruses can't effect people and vice versa. We are all terrified of this microscopic nemesis called norovirus yet it is totally indifferent to us. It's just looking for the same thing we are. To survive and replicate.

[Tasha'93]

Firstly, I love the fact that you have tried to justify what it is and how it works, makes a little more sense than to just think of it as 'EW, NASTY BUG ENTERING OUR SYSTEM, WE'RE GOING TO GET SOOO ILL ' (or at least something to that effect), but it still doesn't stop us phobics worrying like crazy when we know it's going around.

Also, the way in which it sends signals to our brain to make us vomit & have diarrhea makes me think, is this a good thing? Most of the time we are the controllers of our brain in the way that we tell it what our body is about to do. So my point here is, can we stop these signals? I suppose that comes back down to the whole being able to talk yourself out of vomiting thing.

[gumdropper1]

If you've read my Vomiting FAQ (see the link in my sig), you know that my standard speech is that you can prevent vomiting. I don't know that I had noro, but the last time I was severely nauseated, I succeeded in keeping from vomiting. So if it was noro, the virus died inside me. Good riddance.

P.S. Mooki - you're right, and one more thing - the virus succeeds by making you vomit unexpectedly. If you don't have time to get to a private bathroom, then the virus benefits if you vomit in a crowd. In my FAQ, I discuss a case of noro that spread exactly that way. Someone puked at a banquet (yuck), and the closer people were to the puker, the more likely they were to come down with noro themselves.

[mooki]

Firstly, I love the fact that you have tried to justify what it is and how it works, makes a little more sense than to just think of it as 'EW, NASTY BUG ENTERING OUR SYSTEM, WE'RE GOING TO GET SOOO ILL ' (or at least something to that effect), but it still doesn't stop us phobics worrying like crazy when we know it's going around.

Also, the way in which it sends signals to our brain to make us vomit & have diarrhea makes me think, is this a good thing? Most of the time we are the controllers of our brain in the way that we tell it what our body is about to do. So my point here is, can we stop these signals? I suppose that comes back down to the whole being able to talk yourself out of vomiting thing.

I'm still terrified of noro even if I understand it from a scientific viewpoint. I don't know about stopping the signal to vomit. Nausea is the means your brain uses when it decides it's time to purge. It has to make it a very unpleasant thing so that it ensures that you do it. Just like the pain of being burnt is so bad it insures that you snatch your hand away from the fire instead of having your skin melt off. Nausea is just another form of pain that tries to provoke a reaction. You can't stop your brain from sending nausea signals. But like gumdropper said, vomiting can often be prevented. At least if the nausea isn't too severe. Some people have a very high vomiting threshold and have learned a great deal about reading their bodies and keeping things under control. But I'm sure there's a certain nausea level you can cross where nobody can hold it down. I dry heaved on two occasions from hangovers. On each incident, I wretched once, but nothing came up. I had no control over the wretch. It was that powerful. Bad hangover nausea is probably the worst nausea of all. I'm sure if even gumdropper drank a bottle of ipecac he would vomit. So I don't think it's possible to stop it 100% of the time, but you can certainly stop it the majority of the times if you have built up a high nausea tolerance.

[gumdropper1]

Nausea is the means your brain uses when it decides it's time to purge. It has to make it a very unpleasant thing so that it ensures that you do it.

Mooki - I don't think you're right. The function of nausea isn't to ensure that you vomit. It's to teach you to avoid the thing that caused it.

Doug

[mooki]

Mooki - I don't think you're right. The function of nausea isn't to ensure that you vomit. It's to teach you to avoid the thing that caused it.

Doug

Well all pain teaches you to avoid what caused it. But pain is also a form of alarm and it has to be unpleasant so that you try to avoid. Nausea is a bit different because it's your brains way of setting the stage for purging its contents. As many of us emets who experience frequent nausea, you often don't have to do anything wrong at all to get nauseous. For us, there's simply nothing to learn from nausea.

[emmalinda]

what about anti emetics? dont they stop that v* button in your brain?? if you took one of those while you had a virus it woud kind of be like a fight between the anti emetics and the bug

[Tasha'93]

I think anti nausea drugs do stop you from vomiting just not in all cases, but I'm not 100% sure so don't quote me on that!

[mooki]

what about anti emetics? dont they stop that v* button in your brain?? if you took one of those while you had a virus it woud kind of be like a fight between the anti emetics and the bug

I think it depends on the anti-emetic. Some such as pepto, ginger, anti-acid, etc will coat your stomach so that whatever is triggering your stomach's warning receptors will be neutralized. Then some like Dramamine will target the brain for things like sea sickness. Then there are anti-emetics you can intravenously by the doctor that go straight to the brain's vomiting center. To take the right anti-emetic, you have to have some idea what's causing the problem. At the moment I have mild nausea. It's because I ate late last night and then went to sleep. It's like my stomach feels acidy and my stomach lining is irritated. In this case all I need is some antacid to neutralize the PH of my stomach and then my stomach's receptors will stop sending messages to my brain and I'll feel better. Taking something targeting the vomiting center like Dramamine would be overkill and I'm not sure it would work anyway if it's nausea caused by acid indigestion. Better to have something alkaline to coat your stomach with in that case. Noro on the hand is not going to be remedied with antacids because nothing is actually wrong with your stomach. The bug has simply hijacked your nervous system to send false messages to your brain making your brain think you need to vomit. That viruses ability to send these false signals is the means it successfully finds new hosts and perpetuates itself and why is has been around seemingly forever and probably always will until someone invents a vaccine.

[gumdropper1]

^ Mooki - you don't know what you're talking about.

[mooki]

^ Mooki - you don't know what you're talking about.

It would be more helpful to the forum if you provided the correct information and.or links.

[asianeko]

It would be more helpful to the forum if you provided the correct information and.or links.

This definitely goes for everyone involved, so we can get a clearer understanding of everyone's sources, both sides of it.

Doug has his in his sig, and it's very, very informative!

[gumdropper1]

pepto, ginger, anti-acid, etc will coat your stomach so that whatever is triggering your stomach's warning receptors will be neutralized. ... I have mild nausea. It's because I ate late last night and then went to sleep. It's like my stomach feels acidy and my stomach lining is irritated. In this case all I need is some antacid to neutralize the PH of my stomach and then my stomach's receptors will stop sending messages to my brain and I'll feel better.

You toss around phrases like "your stomach's warning receptors" like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Pepto-Bismol advertises itself as coating your stomach, but that isn't how it really works. Bismuth subsalicyclate (the active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol) acts directly on the vomiting center and "coating the stomach" is merely a function of the inactive ingredients. Antacid doesn't do anything systemically -- it just neutralizes the acid. This might even make your gastric situation worse. Stomach acid is what keeps us from catching things that make people vomit a lot of the time. Your stomach lining doesn't react negatively to acid unless you have an ulcer. The issue with acid indigestion is that the acid can splash into the esophagus. Motion sickness drugs work systemically but not all of them suppress the vomiting center. Dramamine/Gravol is one that does. It can also prevent ordinary vomiting.

If one really has acid indigestion, they are far better off eating something to absorb the acid instead of taking antacid.

If you read my Vomiting FAQ, you will see that I cite actual, reputable sources -- books, medical journals, web sites. If you can't utilize existing knowledge, don't write like you do. At the very least, preface everything you write with "I heard..." so people won't get the mistaken idea that you know what you're talking about.

Doug

[KaydeeJayde]

Doug, my goodness! You definitely know your stuff! I'm impressed!!

[Rebecca85]

I didn't think viruses were alive though? I thought they were more like little robots or something. Which is why when you wash your hands, you're washing the virus down the plughole, not killing it like you do bacteria. And a virus has no 'survival instinct'. It's just doing its job like a robot. Finally, I was told the virus itself doesn't replicate. It invades your cells and gets replicated that way.

Oh, and for acid reflux, I use Gaviscon. It sits on top of the stomach acid, so stops it entering the oesophagus, but your stomach is still acid so it does its job properly.

[jkl81]

Well I hope Mooki didn't get her feelings hurt too much. She may be technically wrong in some respects but she's thinking mostly in the right direction, however when it comes to the technical aspects of vomiting I would tend not to argue with gumdropper1 unless I had a lot of peer reviewed medical evidence to back me up.
@Rebecca, I've heard a lot of microbiologists still debate as to whether a virus is alive or not. You are correct in that they cannot reproduce sexually or asexually like plants, animals and bacteria. They have to hijack your dna in order to make copies of themselves. Basically they turn your body into a virus factory until your immune system stops the attack or you die.
Also about the acid problem...you want plenty of acid if at all possible, but it must stay in your stomach which was designed to hold it with no harm, Trouble happens when you have an ulcer or your acid gets into your esophagus as gumdropper said. I have acid problems all the time and I hate to say it but do sometimes resort to antacids. I wish I could figure out a better way, but the acid reflux can cause some serious problems, and while I don't want to vomit I REALLY don't want that damage. Any better ideas?

[emmalinda]

where did you find out about this info on viruses mooki? Oh, and for n* involving infection/virus, maxalon is an anti emetic that can be taken for that. i looked it up

[hairyfairy]

This is what I really hate about these bugs. They take away control of our bodies so that they can replicate, & I don`t want to be reduced to a virus-making factory, so I always carry anti-emetics just in case. Vting is the quikest way to spread the virus, & that`s why we should avoid vting if possible if only to protect others from our germs even if we are`nt emetophobic.

[Rebecca85]

jkl81- for your acid it's worth giving the Gaviscon a try. It leaves the acid in your stomach and just forms a barrier to keep it there. I have been told by my gastro that it's fine to take long term, as often as I need it (up to 4 times a day). Do you know why you get acid problems?

[mooki]

Well I hope Mooki didn't get her feelings hurt too much. She may be technically wrong in some respects but she's thinking mostly in the right direction, however when it comes to the technical aspects of vomiting I would tend not to argue with gumdropper1 unless I had a lot of peer reviewed medical evidence to back me up.

Why do people keep thinking I'm a "she"? I've said numerous times I'm a man.

[jkl81]

I'm sorry. I didn't know you were male, I actually haven't read very many of your posts as I usually hang out in the private forums. A crude assumption because about 85% of the members here are female. I should know better since I too am a male emet. Sorry about that.

[mooki]

You toss around phrases like "your stomach's warning receptors" like you know what you're talking about, but you don't. Pepto-Bismol advertises itself as coating your stomach, but that isn't how it really works. Bismuth subsalicyclate (the active ingredient in Pepto-Bismol) acts directly on the vomiting center and "coating the stomach" is merely a function of the inactive ingredients.

Oh really? I just searched Bismuth subsalicyclate and from the wikipedia page as well as several other pages that turn up in the engine this is essentially what I get:

Bismuth subsalicylate belongs to a class of medications called antacids and adsorbents. It is used to help relieve heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, nausea, and diarrhea. How bismuth subsalicylate works is not completely understood, but it is thought to work by coating the stomach and intestines (protecting them from stomach acid), by reducing inflammation in the stomach, and by killing certain bacteria.

I can't find any information through a search engine saying that Bismuth targets anything in the brain. I searched "how does bismuth work" as well as "bismuth +subsalicyclate + brain" and got NO results verifying anything you said. Your vomiting faq has only one reference in the footnotes to bismuth to a study done on humans and dogs in 1976. The synopsis of the article is here: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...50935/abstract and you'd have to pay to see the entire PDF. I'm not about to do that just for the sake of an internet debate, but the synopsis make no mention of the bismuth suppressing the vomiting center. So at this point I'm going to have to ask you to post sources that Bismuth works on the vomiting center of the brain. Because everything I'm reading online says otherwise and vindicates what I said, that it works on the stomach itself. If it worked on the brain, then it would be a good treatment for noro, but every statement I've read in this forum is that bismuth did not help with noro. So before you go condescendingly correcting me, make sure you have your own facts in order.

Antacid doesn't do anything systemically -- it just neutralizes the acid. This might even make your gastric situation worse. Stomach acid is what keeps us from catching things that make people vomit a lot of the time. Your stomach lining doesn't react negatively to acid unless you have an ulcer. The issue with acid indigestion is that the acid can splash into the esophagus.

Whatever the case, antacid such as Mylanta brings me relief if my stomach acid is strong(when I belch) and it's making my stomach sour.

I also think you misunderstand your own condition. Eating before bed will not cause morning nausea.

Eating certain foods, like things with grease in them does often make me nauseated in the morning. I know my body very well and what different types of food do to me.

If you read my Vomiting FAQ, you will see that I cite actual, reputable sources -- books, medical journals, web sites. If you can't utilize existing knowledge, don't write like you do. At the very least, preface everything you write with "I heard..." so people won't get the mistaken idea that you know what you're talking about.

Doug

Hey, if you have better facts than me, that's fine feel free to share, but I think your condescending and your pedantic tone is a bit much. At this point, I don't believe your bismuth claims since I don't see anything online corroborating such.

[phobiame]

ok i no for a fact that maxalon tablets work for the noro, 3 years ago it went through my house my kids my husband and my mum all had *D and *V i to should have *V but the tablets save me so this i no for sure as in FACT it happened to me and as for certin medication for certin illnesses i got car sick on a 10 hr drive also 3 years ago just before the noro and took maxalon for car sick and it stopped the *N so i think its how you tell your brain its going to work for you.
I am not a doctor just a phobic who will prevent *V in any way i can.. im not saying that everyone should go out and buy maxalon just want to let you no that not everything you read on google isnt gospal i go from experience and a very helpful gp who completly understans my ocd and phobic issues
sorry if i have offended anyone just thought i should sahre my opinion

[gumdropper1]

Maxolon (metoclopramide) is a powerful anti-emetic. In the U.S., it is only availble by prescription. It is also a dangerous drug; it can causes disturbances to the gastrointestinal motility, so it is usually only given to patients with severe nausea and vomiting.

If you're coming down with noro, I would be much more comfortable taking Dramamine/Gravol instead of Maxolon. Dramamine/Gravol can also prevent ordinary vomiting and is sold in suppository form for that very reason.

Pepto-Bismol works as an antacid, but the reason I am frequently promoting it is because it suppresses the vomiting center. It is powerful enough that it can actually counteract a small dose of syrup of ipecac.

I probably shouldn't have commented on Mooki's own illnesses. Whatever works for him works.

Doug

[jkl81]

Well, I believe you are a scientific minded individual and I won't call BS on the ipecac study but it may have little to do with suppressing the vomiting center. Doesn't ipecac cause vomiting by irritating the lining of the stomach and small intestine? Maybe a sufficient dose of Bismuth subsaliycate will coat that area enough to prevent the inflammation that the ipecac causes and prevent the distress signal from the GI system from being sent to the brain in the first place. If this doesn't happen then obviously the *vomit* signal from the brain won't either. So maybe you're both right; it's just a matter of semantics. Anecdotally however I have yet to see anyone say pepto stopped them from vomiting with a SV, except maybe you...and you also took dramamine I remember. I don't have a whole lot of science to back it up but I think that most antiemetics work quite well if you take them early enough in the course of the illness that your stomach will allow them to be absorbed, or use a different route besides the oral route. By the way....gross question but did you ever find a legitimate source of dimenhydrinate suppositories?

[mooki]

Well, I believe you are a scientific minded individual and I won't call BS on the ipecac study but it may have little to do with suppressing the vomiting center. Doesn't ipecac cause vomiting by irritating the lining of the stomach and small intestine? Maybe a sufficient dose of Bismuth subsaliycate will coat that area enough to prevent the inflammation that the ipecac causes and prevent the distress signal from the GI system from being sent to the brain in the first place. If this doesn't happen then obviously the *vomit* signal from the brain won't either. So maybe you're both right; it's just a matter of semantics. Anecdotally however I have yet to see anyone say pepto stopped them from vomiting with a SV, except maybe you...and you also took dramamine I remember. I don't have a whole lot of science to back it up but I think that most antiemetics work quite well if you take them early enough in the course of the illness that your stomach will allow them to be absorbed, or use a different route besides the oral route. By the way....gross question but did you ever find a legitimate source of dimenhydrinate suppositories?

I searched for info stating that Bismuth suppresses the vomiting center of the brain, but could find nothing. All the info stated that it works on the stomach itself. I don't think bismuth would work on noro because from what I know, noro seems to be able to attack the nervous system sending the signals to vomit through your nerves system rather than being an actual agent irritating the lining of your stomach. Plus not only does pepto not seem to work, but many people here have said that the pepto actually made them vomit. You'll probably need need the strong stuff that surpresses the vomiting center in order to combat noro vomiting.

[gumdropper1]

Doesn't ipecac cause vomiting by irritating the lining of the stomach and small intestine? Maybe a sufficient dose of Bismuth subsalicyclate will coat that area ... I have yet to see anyone say pepto stopped them from vomiting with a SV, except maybe you...and you also took dramamine I remember. I don't have a whole lot of science to back it up but I think that most antiemetics work quite well if you take them early enough in the course of the illness that your stomach will allow them to be absorbed, or use a different route besides the oral route. By the way....gross question but did you ever find a legitimate source of dimenhydrinate suppositories?

No, ipecac works on the CTZ (chemoreceptor trigger zone) in the brain, which then stimulates the vomiting center. Ipecac may also mildly affect the stomach lining, but that isn't going to bother any emets. Not only is Pepto good enough at suppressing the vomiting center that it can counteract a small dose of ipecac, it absorbs through the stomach lining, so it will be absorbed even if the stomach has stopped digesting (i.e., sending stuff through to the duodenum). I only took Dramamine at bedtime, after taking Pepto for about 12 hours. Gravol suppositories are readily available in Canada.

Doug

[emmalinda]

once again i beleive that everyone and every virus is different. i had some enoz ( a similar product to pepto) when i had a virus and even a ginger tablet later, and i still vomited. i went to hospital and they gave me zofran and i still vomited. And apparently thats the strongest anti emetic out there. A girl at work felt like vomting after her bf's family all got a virus and all threw up, i gave her a maxalon tablet, sent her home and she never did it. If i was nearly 100% sure that i had a virus or felt extremley sick, i would be taking a maxalon tablet!